Hello,

What do people think of "Language?" I think it is one of SV's most poetic, cerebral songs yet. "Solitude Standing" is a great album, even if it seems more conciously produced than her eponymous debut. It's actually probably my second fav. next to "Days of Open Hand."

Any thoughts?

Sean

Hi Sean,

I think Language is lyrically one of my favourite Suzanne songs. It deals with the tool that we struggle with every day called language. In what way can we really express what we mean, how can we reveal more than just the tip of the Eisberg? I mean, not intentionally hiding anything, but just losing something in the process.

Also there are the realms underneath, the subconscious parts, most of which we never even see ourselves, influencing almost everything that we say and do.

Could it be that selfconsciousness is created by cognition in terms of language? In other words, could self-talking eventually lead to the sense that we call selfconsciousness when we turn about three years old? No matter how big exactly the role of language is in this, I think it's very obvious that it is pretty large!

Mmmmm...wow, this song makes me wonder about a lot of things, I guess.

Yours,
Rutger "Spikey" W.

as i have said in another post, i love language. it is so metaphorically correct.
it makes sence where nothing else does. it touches points that are rarelly thought of, but easaly related to.
it is beautiful!

I was listening to Solitude Standing for the first time in a while and I was struck by the lyrical similarities between the song Language and the Bjork-penned Madonna song "Bedtime Story".
Compare:
Language: "Words are too solid
They don't move fast enough
To catch the blur in the brain
That flies by and is gone"

Bedtime Story: "Today is the last day
That I'm using words
They've gone out
Lost their meaning
Don't function anymore"

Language: "I won't use words again
They don't mean what I meant
They don't say what I said
They're just the crust of the meaning
With realms underneath
Never toughted
Never Stirred
Never even moved through"

Bedtime Story: "Words are useless
Especially sentences
They don't stand for anything
How could they explain how I feel"

I can't imagine SV having influenced directly such a unique artist as Bjork, or Madonna. It's just very interesting that these three artists would have arrived seperately at the same idea. (Or is the powerlessness of language a more common theme than I realize?)
Do I smell a future collaboration? ;-)

Brady

gee, to me bedtime story may be expressing the same themes, (which I think ARE universal) but they do not compare at all in style, workmanship, or poetry!!!!
Suzanne wins by a MILE!!!

Love,
Miriam k

Why does one song have to be *better* than the other? Why detract from Bjork? Why not enjoy them both?
That wasn't the point of this post.

}}

I did't think that was the point. I guess my post was parenthetical, or just btw. Once the songs are compared, it struck me so.
I did not mean to downplay bjork or anyone who likes her writing. It just struck me in the comparison, that's all.

I find in general email writing to be difficult in conveyence of moods, and ideas. What one person means tongue-in-cheek, another reads as an out and out insult. Or what one means a complement, another sees as a joke. I guess this always happens in real life, but at least one can hear nuances that cant be heard in email. One can see facial expressions that can't be seen here. So this leads to confusion or people taking issue.
Words uttered, once said, are gone. Here, the words written are forever posted on the WWW. Never to be downlived, always available for reinspection.
All this has a positive aspect, for sure... but sometimes it is difficult to surmount...

Miriam K

DISCLAIMER: This is not "aimed" at anyone, just randomed thoughts on language, and email, and it seemed appropriate to post here...

Hey Miriam, you just illustrated the point of (both) songs!
"(...words) don't say what I said, they don't mean what I meant, they're just the crust.."

I totally agree with what you said, having frequently regretted the (unintentional) tone of my emails. Thanks for yours.

Brady

Howdy to all!

Recently I took my mother to the Simon and Garfunkel concert. I could hear bits and pieces of some of the songs that sounded like bits and pieces of some of Suzanne's songs. Not that she plagerized, or even that it was thoughtful. Maybe those 4 notes in progression felt right because it had entered her subconcious. I think that there are many cases where similar sounds are discovered by both also. When notes feel right, they are right.

Also, think of how 'silence' and 'solitude' are kindred spirits. Then let your mind play with the idea that Sound of Silence and Solitude Standing are similar. SS is not a rehash, or a take off, but they do have a certain feel to them.

Uncwilly
Song of the day: Old Friends, Simon and Garfunkel (live)
Cheese: Alverca

I stumbled upon the following quote;

"A word is dead, when it is said, some say
I say, it just begins to live, that day"
E. Dickinson

It's funny, it sounded like something you could say after thinking about or singing a song like language. Language isn't always appropriate to use to say what you mean. Words don't always say what you mean; and it doesn't really matter, cause even if they did exactly say what you mean, other people could interpret it another way. The words begin to live a life of their own anyway.

Spikey

I perfectly agree with you on that, Spike. And I've always though that Emily Dickinson's and Suzanne Vega's works are related. That's a good point to start. They both definitely love language and master it in amazing ways to get the deeper meanings out of the crust that traps them away from our eyes. Actually, words in their works let the ideas and meanings shine through. I think they do manage to make language liquid as well as wonderfully musical.

Miki

orphan meanings scattered within the layers of days. words are plenty but injured nowadays. too many say too little. find the right word. say it loud and hear the silence after it, attached to it like a kite making it fly high and resonate. every word and its silence wait in the humdrum of days.

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chance is the only thing that doesn't happen by chance

„Thus language is intermediary and intermediate. For Freud, language remains in the sphere of the preconscious. Nevertheless, language possesses the power to go beyond consciousness because it is situated between consciousness and the unconscious. How does language possess this extraordinary power to render things conscious?”

„Freud, [..] constructed a model of language which was not a system, but what he called a language area, a sort of mutation or fluidity.”

http://www.psychomedia.it/jep/number3-4/kristeng.h tm

I remember “A Beautiful Mind” how John Nash was looking in newspaper for messages for him and the world. Of course he found them, found what fitted to his psychoses. But this is true for everyone. Keep an eye out. “[..] language possess(es) this extraordinary power to render things conscious” I am sure we know everything that we need. Just bring it into life, through words, through language. Make situations as if being thought not felt. This is possible. I was on the verge of sanity, I was struggling, looking for my place in this spiritual word. I was lost and suffering. And then I took newspaper. I looked it only through and came up with the definition of spiritual teacher. True teacher doesn’t say – “if you don’t do this or that, you’ll be lost”, but says “Whatever you do, you will be loved”. It was big hand, which took my anxiety away. One sentence, few words at proper time could do miracles. Look for them, always look for them and let things go. Speak and your unconsciousness will speak to you. Read and your unconsciousness will be read. And then let things go. Language is like fluidity and fluid. It doesn’t like to stand still. It is hard to stop it. It doesn’t like empty space. It can destroy and create. Be careful.

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"like a shadow, I am and I am not"

"language is a struggle", suzanne said to me in the interview for "urgent whispers". it has a life of its own and one has to carve within it to find one's own voice. therefore it's something handmade and personal. it's a tool (something "intermediary and intermediate") of expression.

thinking is closer to language than feeling. how easily do you put words to something you felt? how does language express emotions? i know it's possible to "make situations as if being thought not felt". i've done it for more than a year regarding a situation of mine. yes, it rendered things conscious, acutely so, but not lived through. i was just dealing with my reason and that's not enough since reason and emotion are two sides of the same coin. i let myself go deeply and as acutely into the realm of feelings and found out i have no words to express my emotions. i walk errantly in a wordless realm, one of those "never touched, never stirred, never even moved through" suzanne talks about in this song. will i find a language for my emotions eventually? i hope so because then i would have found my own true voice, one that is informed by emotion and reason, a language of red and gray, always struggling to be faithful to them both.

i believe suzanne has found her own true voice a long time ago and i feel this is why she doesn't sing this song anymore. and maybe this song helped her get there, to that point where you realize you'll get the right words, your own words, at some given time, when you're ready or through some hard work, but you just know they'll be there, in your heart and mind, ringing true and in unison.

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chance is the only thing that doesn't happen by chance

I think the first Undertow thread I ever took part in (5 and half years ago) was about "Language". I probably wrote a long email to say what Fátima just said in a few words (but you cheated, because you quoted Suzanne).

There's just an analogy I'd like to add: that of "translation". As if we have an internal language that we translate to words. Italians say "tradurre è tradire" (translate is to betray) and I agree, each time we translate we lose something, we do an interpretation, and ultimately we change.

That's, to me, why language is (and must be) a struggle. I feel that struggle everyday.

Now Fátima, I would disagree only on one thing.

"i believe suzanne has found her own true voice a long time ago"

Not intending to evaluate Suzanne, I'd say she hasn't. For the simple reason that I don't believe that's a finished job. We learn as we live and grow as human beings. We're a work in progress. New experiences, and what becomes of us day by day, force us not only to deal with new challenges, but to face them differently time after time. Through all of them we learn, and have to readapt ourselves. It's not a linear process, and it doesn't even mean we always improve. The road is long and bumpy.

But one thing I'm sure of. Suzanne is aware of this struggle, and she's aware of the existence of "her own true voice" (to use your expression). "Language" is about that.

This reminds me of Socrates and his "I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance." It's the basis of his method, and the path to his wisdom.

To me "Language" is Suzanne's way of doing (saying) the same.

j.c.

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