First of all, welcome to Undertow! It's always nice to see a new face, especially another Israeli fan. I hope you'll stay and participate in the discussions.
As for your call for a boycott, I can't disagree more. I'm an Israeli citizen, like you, and I oppose the occupation of the Palestinians as much as I oppose the use of terror as a political tool. I have not, and will not, justify the actions of my government. Then again, reality is complex… My view of the subject is that there is no solution, political or military, to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Under this assumption, separation of populations is a fairly logical means to maintain peace, which it effectively does.
I'm not sure if this is the right forum for an in-depth discussion of this geopolitical dispute… it once was, but those days are long gone. So I'll address your main point and say no more.
Suzanne has so far chosen to keep her political views on most issues private. If she would choose to speak up against the Israeli occupation, I would understand her possible choice to cancel her shows out of solidarity with this cause. But pressuring an artist to cancel a show (even delivering death threats, as has recently happened), when this is not the artist's choice, is wrong.
What would a boycott achieve? Suzanne's fans would be disappointed, and people who don't know her music will miss out on an opportunity to be acquainted. Will this send a shock wave through Israeli society that will end the occupation? Hardly. Previous cancellations have done little to this effect, and (as sorry as I am to say this) cancelling Suzanne's shows will do even less.
Just in case she doesn't cancel, will you come to one of the shows? It's an amazing experience.
Hi Yuval and thank you for the cnosiderate response (and welcome message), I appreciate it.
I have much to say but will keep this post brief, more will probably follow later.
1st off to answer your last question – no, I will not attend Suzanne's show. As mentioned before, I would love to, but my conscience will not let me and relying on past experience I won't enjoy the show one bit considering the circumstances involved.
You see Yuval, whether you're aware of it or not (living in Israel you have to make an effort to get a sane view of the world and worldwide tendencies), there is a Palestinian call which more and more people throughout the world endorse, and there is a picket line – whether visible or not – which I do not intend to cross. This crossing of the picket line sends a message of "Business as usual" with criminal-apartheid-Israel. It sends a message that even though atrocities are being carried out here on a daily and hourly basis, even though 1.5 million people are "living" in the largest open-air prison in the world under sub-conditions as if they were sub-humans, we have no problem singing along with Suzanne only 1 hour's drive away from this hell-on-earth called Gaza.
And Israel is fully, completely, responsible for these attrocities and much much more. The problem is it's not only the Israeli government which is responible, but soooo many of its citizens are complicit in o so many ways. Just remember the statistics of Jewish-Israeli support of the massacre in Gaza 2 years ago – more than 95% of this population, many of which will be in the audience in Cesaria, supported the massacre and still do! Most of them still insist, despite all available facts, that it was done in self-defense.
Israeli society is a sick society, with more and more fascist expressions inside Israel happening by the minute. Just think of the latest new laws and regulations prohibiting freedom of speech. I may end up in jail or with a hefty fine for speaking up here in this forum, if a new law being legislated and soon to pass in the Israeli Knesset will be in effect.
As mentioned, there is much much more to be said.
My main point to you is this: International Law and basic human rights for all are not to be negotiated! They are to be demanded!
I demand this and so should you, and urge you to reconsider your support of Suzanne's show. Suzanne and you do not have the privilege of remaining apolitical, separate from the world, in light of the grave injustice carried out in our name.
I want to thank you for writing here about the situation in your country. For those of us outside Isreal, it is very difficult to find honest news and facts about what is/has been happening. One must turn to alternative press outlets, and the like, because there has been a whitewash of the facts here in the states.
I also want to applaud your dedication to your beliefs by boycotting the concert — I know this must be disappointing for a true fan. It may be a small act, as actions toward peace go, but justice will never be achieved if everyone simply sits back and does not take a stand.
What does it mean that Suzanne will play Isreal? If she were to make a statement about the injustices, would that not serve a great purpose? If she simply played without remark? I ask to facilitate a broader discussion.
Peace will come through justice. Ra
If sandwaves were soundwaves what song would be in the air now?
The debate over the Israeli-Palestinian conflict itself is an endless, and therefore pointless, debate. I do not intend to exchange political views with anyone on the internet, because online discussions are even less effective than face to face discussions, which never convince anyone of anything they didn't already want to believe. I do, however, contest the tone of your text.
Writing things like 'Suzanne and you do not have the privilege of remaining apolitical' are always suspicious to me. They suggest a radical point of view, a view of reality in black and white, an uncompromising faith in one's righteousness. I seriously hope I'm wrong about the vibe I got from the text, but it's hard when you use strong terms like 'massacre' and 'atrocities'.
Suzanne has a choice. So do I. So do you, for that matter, and I applaud your moral and political resolve.
PS: Israeli laws do not apply to servers outside Israel. The police acknowledged this when Bloggers circumvented publication restrictions recently, so feel free to write anything you want.
Rachel,
As an Israeli, I have a hard time finding non-biased news sources myself. Most of the Israeli press, while completely free, chooses to be extra-patriotic. Foreign press is usually pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian, and I have yet to find a major news agency that is truly objective.
As I wrote before, situation here is the most complex and volatile that exists anywhere around the world today, I believe. There are so many truths here, simultaneously parallel and conflicting, and objective journalism is virtually impossible under these conditions. The whitewash of facts, as you put it, is happening here as well.
Suzanne's performances in Israel have nothing to do with politics. She is not regarded as a political artist, and any statement she makes will be met with raised eyebrows here. I say, let the muse sing.
I'm not an Israeli or even a Jew, but this is burnt into my memory:
When Palestinians swear off senseless violence as the way to solve problems I will be more sympathetic to their cause. Till then, I sympathize with the people whose friends and family members are being blown up.
Furthermore, if there were a people of any race, religion or ethnic group in America engaging in such senseless violence and it's glorification in such numbers on so many occasions as the Palestinians and their supporters, I personally would support a lot of limits on their freedom. Not because I'm some sort of fascist or racist, but because I wouldn't want to see someone I loved randomly, senselessly murdered.
If Palestinians want sympathy for their plight, than they need to swear off acts of terrorism and violence. Only when that happens, will my heart ever soften towards Palestinians.
"…Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand…" n— Margery Williams Bianco n (The Velveteen Rabbit)
All generalizations are dangerous (including this one). The Palestinians are far from a homogeneous group. While some of them endorse terror, most of them are regular folks like me and you, who want to see their children grow up, who want to make ends meet, who want to enjoy life. The situation is more complex than the press would have you believe.
But I'll reiterate my point: no amount of discussing the matter in internet forums is going to change anyone's opinion or change reality. The question at hand is whether cancelling Suzanne's shows in Israel would make a difference, which I think it won't.
I encourage you, and other Towies of course, to form your opinions based on as many facts, testimonies and common sense as possible.
After I posted I had the feeling that some would take my post in the way you did and that's quite understandable. I do apologize if my response was rude to our new member. I'm sure he's a decent human being with the best of intentions. I have some very strong feelings about what happened that day and I'm sure a lot of other Americans do as well. However, I have to add that there is more to my sentiments than just a video of a few people.
More than anything else, I view the election of Hamas — regarded by many nations including the United States as a terrorist organization — by popular vote of the Palestinian people as a very damning indication of the general attitude held by Palestinians regarding the use of terrorism.
Hamas has been involved in using children as human shields, suicide bombings, recruiting and training children to wage holy war, As late as 2005 Hamas officials were denying the Holocaust happened.
The Anti-Defamation League states that Hamas's government sponsored television station Al-Aqsa TV promotes terrorist activities and incites hatred of Jews and Israelis.
n a 2002 report, Human Rights Watch stated that Hamas' leaders "should be held accountable for the war crimes and crimes against humanity that have been committed by its members.
In June 30, 2007, HRW published its report titled, Indiscriminate Fire, Palestinian Rocket Attacks on Israel and Israeli Artillery Shelling in the Gaza Strip. In August 28, 2007, HRW published its report titled Civilians under Assault, Hezbollah’s Rocket Attacks on Israel in the 2006 War. In April 20, 2009, HRW published its report titled Under Cover of War Hamas, Political Violence in Gaza.
My attitude towards the Palestinian people will be much more sympathetic when organizations such as Hamas are no longer voted into power.
"…Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand…" n— Margery Williams Bianco n (The Velveteen Rabbit)
Everything you wrote is true, Jerry. I agree with every last word of yours, and I wish more people around the world understood the true nature of Hammas. However, there's some political history missing here.
Hammas was founded in 1987 by Palestinians disillusioned by the PLO (Fattakh), the latter turning over the years from a terrorist organization to a money machine, with most of its leaders getting fat and rich from skimming the top of donations collected for the welfare of Palestinians in the west bank and Gaza.
When the PLO signed the Oslo accords with Israel as the representative of the Palestinian people, it turned into a legitimate political group on the one hand, but factions within it remained militant on the other hand. The leaders raised hundreds of millions of dollars to kick-start a new Palestinian economy, but most of that money made its way to personal bank accounts in confidential Swiss banks. The (literally) poor Palestinians remained poor in the refugee camps, and a small group of those close to the leadership started living very well.
Now, you can fool most of the people most of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. During the 1990's Hammas carried out some of the most vile terror attacks on civilian Israeli targets, and simultaneously raised money through its own channels (mostly backed by Iran and Syria) that actually went towards helping the common man in Gaza and the camps. These two channels of action, in blatant defiance of PLO hegemony, raised their popularity immensely.
After the 2006 elections, in which Hammas won, the PLO refused to accept the results and a miniature civil war broke out in Gaza, which Hammas won. The PLO operatives who weren't killed in the fighting were tried and executed, or simply banished from the Gaza strip. To this day the PLO refuses to acknowledge Hammas as the legitimate ruler, as does Israel.
But I repeat what I started with: everything you wrote is true, Jerry.
Post edited 1:04 am – July 5, 2010 by ItsTimeToBoycott
hi y'all,
i've been away for a while and couldn't therefore respoond earlier. here a very quick response:
Ra: you are most welcome. i strongly suggest following independent media outlets as: DemocracyNow and TheRealNews for real information. they are far from being pro-Palestinian in their attitude, they are simply pro-human-rights which is rare (to say the least) in mainstream media and is a foul idea in the israeli one.
Yuval: the tone of my voice was exactly as you understood it, whether you like it or not. your attempt at being apolitical and an apologetic for israel (i know you don't think you are but you damn well are!) is despicable, not my attitude which demands you, me, Suzanne and the rest of the world to stand up for the most basic human values and to defend human (and other animals') rights instead of treading over them.
as for the situation in israel-palestine: the situation is not at all complex, sorry to tell you. it is in fact extremely clear and simple, should you choose to look at the facts, which are also clearly and easily available. the israeli-american propaganda machine is a very strong one, but the facts are available should you just choose to read alternative media sources, human rights organizations' reports and so on.
btw, also the history of the zionist palestinian conflict is a very simple one, although you would try to say otherwise, this is the simplest conflict to explain and easiest to resolve – given that the US and israel choose to head in that direction, in contradiction with everything they've been doing so far.
as for the use of terms such as 'terror', 'massacre', 'attrocity' and 'apartheid' – i only use terms which are consistent with the facts. especially when speaking of terms which have a legal definition like "apartheid" and "terror". it so happens that israel also falls legally under these definitions. in any case, the use of terms such as 'the war on Gaza' or 'operation Cast Lead' are a direct result of israeli-american propaganda and have nothing to do whatsoever with the facts, as there was no war in Gaza, the term closest to the facts are 'massacre'. you may read soldiers testimonies who have been there and say the same.
Jerry: as opposed to Yuval who's living in israel, i do not expect you to be familiar with the facts of this area of the world. nonetheless, i do expect you to think for yourself. the claims you made, each and every single claim, i can refute. there is nothing you mentioned which is factually correct and not for the reasons Yuval laid out above.
it is not fair of me to say this and sign off although i really have to go, so i will quickly add a few (there are manyyyyy) links here one quick sentence for now:
the ones who constantly use violence and terror, the ones who consistently deny any peaceful settlement or even a peaceful approach are the Israelis, not the Palestinians (even including Hamas which i don't have many good things to say in their favor). these are the facts and are very easy to prove, will do so in another post.
Seeing Through the Lies: The Facts About Hamas and the War on Gaza
about current israeli fascism as well as the cancellations of concerts by Costello and the Pixies (many many performers have been cancelling, but Suzanne is unfortunately still scheduled to play apartheid israel)
a response to Yuval's wrong claim that speaking about and calling for boycott will not get me into trouble with the israeli (i)legal system
Thanks for the links. I'll check them out as time permits. I watch "Democracy Now" on FreeSpeech TV and also subscribe to a magazine called "In These Times." They are the two alternatives I have found to be most objective, and thorough. ("In These Times" broke the Iran/Contra Reagan/Ollie North bs at least a year before the mainstream media.)
Do you suppose that Suzanne did not know about the boycott? And that now, it is perhaps a very sticky situation (contractually) for her to cancel? Hmm… Makes me wonder.
Peace, Ra
If sandwaves were soundwaves what song would be in the air now?
thanks! ignorant me, i wasn't aware of In These Times.
as for Suzanne, i'm afraid she is well aware of the BDS call, well at least that it exists, not necessarily the content as people so easily tend to distort and misunderstand it.
and Cohen, who had long talks with the boycott campaign, still decided to play in israel despite the BDS call. to his credit we may say that he tried (and failed) to adhere to the call, but could not, so i understand, cancel his concert due to some legal/other obligations. he offered to have a concert in Ramallah as well as apartheid Tel-Aviv, but this was not in line with the BDS call. if he were, on the other hand, to have a clear message against israel's crimes and against "business as usual" with israel until it abides by the International Law then it would have been in line with the call even playing in Tel-Aviv.
You tell people to read your preferred news sources to get "the real information", while dismissing any media source that contradicts your message as "propaganda". You claim that the situation is simple, but offer no simple explanation, and certainly no simple solution. You vehemently oppose my view and my suggestion that your view is too simplistic, as far as finding it despicable. This kind of zealousness towards a political goal has never been anything but destructive in human history. Ever. I can name dozens of examples off the top of my head.
As I wrote before, I will not debate the issue at the heart of the matter, because it is always an endless, fruitless, and therefore a pointless, discussion. If you choose to write here again, I wish you'd make your arguments (I use the word with care) in a more civil manner, respecting other people's opinions and views as you'd like others to respect yours.
Yuval
PS: Was it your idea to register to this forum and start this thread? If so, I find it a strange coincidence that the same message has been shouted on Twitter and on the web in great volume over the past few days. I suspect an organized call to action by some party or another with a political agenda, not necessarily yours…
i do not disrespect other views, but i do claim that it is despicable to be apolitical when such gross violations of human rights and daily routine terror practices are being carried out (literally) under our nose. it is not your or any other person's views (and a lack of factual basis) which is the problem – it is the attitude which i greatly criticise – an attitude which looks the other way, like all those simple german fellas who were actively looking the other way and actively not taking a stand, as the monster was in full view for all to see.
as for the arguments to be made, if the supplied links did not cover them well enough i could and would be happy to go on and on about it (i did apologize for not having the time to explain, but will be more than happy to go in-depth at a later time). as mentioned in a previous post – the facts of the matter are actually very clear. this is not a simplistic view, it is just not the mainstream israeli view which would like to portray the zionist-palestinian conflict as something so unique and complex, where in fact it is just the same old story of a brutal opressive colonization of the indigenious people of this land, by a great variety of means to name some: ethnic cleansing, massacres here and there, house demolitions, ethnic-racist discriminatory laws and an even greater number of racist institutional practices, brutal military occupation, siege and terror (both mental and physical).
again Yuval, this is not a zealous view, it is just not what you are used to hearing. i vehemntly oppose the attitude, not the fact that we have a different understanding of reality – which can soon be remedied assuming we are reasonable people who care about facts. i may carry on with a long list of facts here in a number of days from now, or in private among teh 2 of us and even face to face if you like.
as for your p.s. comment – i am sorry that i alone am writing here and not the great many BDS supporters who would also like Suzanne to reconsider her performances in apartheid Israel. i have so far posted here alone under my initiative, but would urge others to do the same. i have not used twitter but am happy to learn that others have. i do not think that these performances in Israel should go unmentioned and would hope that as many BDS supporters around teh globe (and there are more and more all the time) would picket and demonstrate in front of every venue where Suzanne is currently playing – asking her to stand by human rights and the itenrational law and not against them.
I have to thank you ronnie for putting up such an important post, as it also saddens me to think that, suzanne would play in Tel Aviv, knowing that there is a bds on Israel, I am a fan of most music and have found my self singing/humming away to many of suzannes songs, especially this past while, I also would like to think that you suzanne as a human first, consider the rights of all human beings, before the fact that you are an artist, there are too many people being killed all around the world, and in israel, there can be no exception, as Israel term themselves as a democratic state why is it not complying with international laws and un resolutions, I wish I could be joining your site as a fan today, but my joining your site today is also an outcry for you to help in the cause for palestinian and human rights.
As an artist, you automatically become a role model for hundreds and thousands of people, young an old, how does your playing in an area for one side of a conflict bare on all those who listen to you, when their as been the call for boycott, is it right to teach young adults and old, that the best thing you can do in conflict situations or any situation for that matter is to be quiet or ignore "it'll go away"
If enough people listen and enough people show they care for this situation, a boycott is the best mechanism to "fight" such a situation, they will have to listen. please please do the right thing here, show us your fans, and ordinary people, human rights are important for everybody
I would also like to add my name to the growing list asking Suzanne Vega to respect the picket line and support BDS, this includes a Cultural Boycott, you may claim to be a political, but this is a call for humanity, the Apartheid in Palestine is suffocating their people as we speak,illegally arresting and detaining, consentingly confiscating land, banning on freedom of movement… and systematically oppressing them. The Israeli Regime has created ghettos, purposely establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group, it's a system of institutionalized racial segregation and discrimination. If you turn a blind eye and continue by playing your proposed concerts only kilometers away you are effectively giving the O.K for this regime to continue.
Please do the right thing, Do Not Cross The Picket Line. NOT IN MY NAME.
Post edited 7:55 pm – July 17, 2010 by davidwillner
hello everyone.
my name is David, im an israeli peace activist and a huge fan of suzanne's.
im a member of a joint movement for palestinians and israelis called combatants for peace.
our belife is that the only way to end the occupation, to end the cycle of violence and to bring peace to both nations is to fight together in NON VIOLENT WAYS. beacuse both sides are victims of the violence we are creating. i live in the city of sderot, so belive me, i know what its like to be under attack by rockets from gaza on a daily basis, and at the same time to see my goverment holding the gaza civillians as prisoners.
you must understand that a boycott on israel WILL NOT END THE OCCUPATION. it will only increase the feeling of paranoia a lot of iasraelis have and just creat more hate.
if you really want to help our struggle for peace and a palestinian state next to the state of israel, then please support the peace movements in our area. belive me it will be much more positive and affective then a boycott.
and on this note, i would like to thank suzanne for an AMAZING concert last thursday!!!!!
What kind of fans show up on an artist's website — post nothing positive about the art or the artist, question the artist's commitment to human rights, make long political diatribes and urge the artist NOT to share their art?
This is doubly disturbing when one considers the artist in question has intentionally avoided taking stances on controversial political matters for her whole career and has over two decades of support for groups such as Amnesty International and Casa Alianza under her belt.
It's obvious who has come here to spread propaganda.
"…Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand…" n— Margery Williams Bianco n (The Velveteen Rabbit)
I too do not appreciate those who are spreading negative thoughts and inappropriate propaganda on this forum. Suzanne's art rises above this kind of political carping, and she has proven herself to be a great humanitarian, as Jerry has noted. Her music should be bringing people together, not driving them apart. I noticed Elton John had similar thoughts when he played there recently.
"looking for your fingerprints, I find them in coincidence, and make my faith to grow"
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